Back to the Dark Waters
Back... again - elizabeth_cs
Back... again

Oh, there was so much going on here, I am loosing track of what I've missed.  Commenting on all of them is probably not an option, but I hope to go through all my favorite stories, at least.

Thank you for checking on me, I wasn't able to reply until now either.  Doing it! 

Here's the lesson: if you already have a boo-boo, then don't eat properly for nearly two weeks, and then eat and drink a lot all in one day, then there is a high probability you will end up in the emergency room.  Here's one good thing about it though - you can instantly lose a few pounds.  IoI  The rest sucks.

There are some very cool prezzies that I've got.  Will post about some of them, hopefully tomorrow. :-)  *hugs to all my friends, if I still have any*.

Current Mood: dorky dorky

33 comments or Leave a comment
sueworld2003 From: sueworld2003 Date: January 23rd, 2006 01:42 am (UTC) (Link)
Welcome back love, you were missed!

Sounds like you've had a very mixed time uptil now!
elizabeth_cs From: elizabeth_cs Date: January 23rd, 2006 01:48 am (UTC) (Link)
Thank you, sweety. Hurting is not fun, but I am better and back home, so its cool. And hey, no more drinking for me... or eating for this matter. IoI *hugs Sue*
From: jans_intentions Date: January 23rd, 2006 01:52 am (UTC) (Link)
I'm glad you are okay! Just seeing you around is a prezzie. Please take better care of yourself. *hugs*
elizabeth_cs From: elizabeth_cs Date: January 23rd, 2006 02:01 am (UTC) (Link)
Thank you for saying that, sweety. Take care of myself? *snort*
woman_of_ From: woman_of_ Date: January 23rd, 2006 02:49 am (UTC) (Link)
Hugs, hope you are all better, not nice feeling unwell. I did miss you! Hope you are back to full strengh soon.
elizabeth_cs From: elizabeth_cs Date: January 24th, 2006 01:08 am (UTC) (Link)
Thank you, sweety. I am much better now. It is very nice to be missed. I missed you too A LOT! *huge hug and kisses*
marie72 From: marie72 Date: January 23rd, 2006 05:17 am (UTC) (Link)
Glad you're okay...
elizabeth_cs From: elizabeth_cs Date: January 24th, 2006 01:09 am (UTC) (Link)
:) Thanks, dear. As my grandad says: They wish! IoI
novichok74 From: novichok74 Date: January 23rd, 2006 08:08 am (UTC) (Link)
Бедный ребенок :( А я думала, куда ты пропала - неужели дела заели, а тебя оказывается болячка заела *тьфу на нее* Надеюсь, сейчас ты чувствуешь себя лучше :)Поправляйся окончательно *чмоки*
На мой дневничок не забегала? Я его слегка декорировала :)
elizabeth_cs From: elizabeth_cs Date: January 24th, 2006 01:11 am (UTC) (Link)
тьфу, We will talk about it no more. IoI

Da, lapochka, yze xorosho sebya chyvstvyu... tol'ko zrat' xochy, a nizya. Spasibo za pozelaniya. *hugs* Shas zabezim na tvoi dnevnichok. :-) WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEee
shapinglight From: shapinglight Date: January 23rd, 2006 10:09 am (UTC) (Link)
Good heavens, I didn't realise you'd been in hospital! I hope you're okay now?
elizabeth_cs From: elizabeth_cs Date: January 24th, 2006 01:12 am (UTC) (Link)
Just for a couple of days. The rest was at my parents'. Whichever is worse. IoI

Thank you, sweety, I am back and very macho. *hugs*
_sharvie_ From: _sharvie_ Date: January 23rd, 2006 11:44 am (UTC) (Link)
I'm so glad you are okay. *hugs* Now, keep us all informed because if you disappear again we are going to send out a search party!
elizabeth_cs From: elizabeth_cs Date: January 24th, 2006 01:14 am (UTC) (Link)
IoI Look who is talking, miss busy-bee. If I'd send a search party for you, it would be somewhere in Jamaica by now. *hugs*
From: jans_intentions Date: January 30th, 2006 02:37 am (UTC) (Link)
Hey, I lost you tonight in MSN and it kind of depressed me. I've been thinking about you all week. I hope you come find me soon!


From: (Anonymous) Date: January 30th, 2006 06:52 am (UTC) (Link)
I'm sorry that I'm posting this anonymously, but it's because we have very different groups of "friends" and my "friends" are the ones currently saying that what you said in stoney321's journal was "wrong" or "didn't make any sense."

I think that what you said was perfectly clear and reasonable and that those who didn't understand were not trying to understand, but instead were just looking for a way to defend their friends. This includes ladycat777.

I also think that Americans (or in dovil's case, New Zealanders) tend to have a limited understanding of the word nazi and not to be able to separate it from the Holocaust. That is their failing, not yours.

I am sorry that I don't have the nerve to post this with my username on it, but even though I am very disappointed in my "friends" this evening, I am not prepared to do battle with them or damage my relationship with my LJ community, flawed as though it may be.

Nevertheless, I felt like the least I could do is come over here and offer you a bit of support by saying that I do not feel you were listened to with respect or fairness and I am sorrier about that than you can know.
ladycat777 From: ladycat777 Date: January 30th, 2006 02:03 pm (UTC) (Link)
If you have issue with anything I said -- which you don't know, as I deleted it -- then you are perfectly free to come talk to me about it. I fully agree that nazism in Europe is viewed differently than in the U.S. We do have a very hard time separating out the Holocaust from the politics surrounding it because for most of us, the Holocaust is what we're taught. And I'm also very willing to be convinced as to why I overreacted, if I did, because of those differences.

However. I stand by my statement that comparing bullying in fandom to nazism was extreme and very insulting. Regardless of whether you're European or not. If you disagree? Please come talk to me and I'd be happy to discuss it without once thinking negatively about you, just as I never once thought negatively about Elizabeth.

And for the record, I was not supporting Dovil. I have extreme issue with people using Hitler/Nazism in comparison to fannish things, as it's come up before, and I tend to get cranky.
From: (Anonymous) Date: January 30th, 2006 03:11 pm (UTC) (Link)
Your for the record point is taken. I am sorry that I misrepresented your motives.

I'm sorry as well that I am choosing to remain anonymous, but I am. Yes, it probably reflects a lack of courage and honesty on my part. But it's not because of you as a person (and I don't claim to be an expert on you as a person), but because I have seen too many well intended discussions go horribly wrong (like the one that started this) to believe that courage and honesty will guarantee a positive outcome. Again, having nothing to do with you specifically.
ladycat777 From: ladycat777 Date: January 30th, 2006 03:17 pm (UTC) (Link)
Would you rather email me? Because I'm honestly very confused. I'm enough of a student of history to understand there are differences between us-views and european views (I'm Jewish and have survivors in the family, too, which only further muddies the waters) and what some of them might be -- but I really, truly do not understand why comparing bullying with a political movement that caused a great deal of suffering for a lot of people is, well. Appropriate.

This isn't about the bullying or any other of Elizabeth's points, I want to make clear. I'm not at all discussing those, some of which I agree with. It's just that single comparison that made me see red, and I'd love to understand why I shouldn't have overreacted, since I probably did.

I really don't get it and I'd like to, so, would you email me? I will not divulge your name to anyone.
elizabeth_cs From: elizabeth_cs Date: January 30th, 2006 04:28 pm (UTC) (Link)
First of all, I DID NOT COMPARE BULLING WITH A POLITICAL MOVEMENT in Nazi Germany, as you probably understand. I thought that an intelligent writer could separate in between two, but obviously it wasn't the case. The fact that you are keep blowing it out of proportions is bothering me still. I think we cleared it out through e-mail communication and reached the stopping point of our mutual communication to each other. There is no reason for you to be coming to my LJ in order to insult me again.

Also, that kid on your icon freaks me out, I had a nightmare tonight with that face in it.
ladycat777 From: ladycat777 Date: January 30th, 2006 04:31 pm (UTC) (Link)
Lucy from Chronicles of Narnia bothers you? My apologies.

And I am not trying to insult you. I never tried in the first place. I'm sorry you keep thinking I am. My conversation with the anon commentor, if it continues, will be in emails and no longer in your journal.

One final comment -- you may not have intended to compare the two. But I have no other way of reading your initial comment than as a comparison, which means I am not understanding you. I am sorry for that.
elizabeth_cs From: elizabeth_cs Date: January 30th, 2006 04:56 pm (UTC) (Link)
I have extreme issue with people using Hitler/Nazism in comparison to fannish things, as it's come up before, and I tend to get cranky.

After I repeatedly insisted that I wasn't comparing the two, and it was a simple misunderstanding, you keep saying that I did because "there is no other way for you to read it"? In other words, you don't want to hear or know my thoughts on it, as you already made your conclusion and intended to stick to it? I am trying to find the right, but I can't. That's exactly what I thought anyway.
ladycat777 From: ladycat777 Date: January 30th, 2006 04:58 pm (UTC) (Link)
Actually, I had posted before your explanation which I honestly still don't understand. I did accept, in my second deleted comment to you, that you thought it was an explanation that explained it and was willing to drop it. My comments were to the anon poster only, since I couldn't email them.

Look, I get that you say it wasn't a comparison. I still don't understand it, though, just like I didn't understand it when you first wrote it and yes, talking about wwii, holocaust et al tends to make me very cranky. I calmed down, and I did overreact in my initial comment to you. ONLY my initial comment.

But since you're here and talking to me -- why did you chose that particular association because I really, truly, honestly don't get why it was even mentioned, in any form?
elizabeth_cs From: elizabeth_cs Date: January 30th, 2006 05:55 pm (UTC) (Link)
I am still here probably because it is my lj... And I honestly don't know why I am stil talking...

There is a number of synonymous to such strong and broad statements as totalitarizm, oppressiveness, tyranism. One of the terms often used in the US as a common language is a nazi. Kid screaming at a policeman “stupid nazi” is not an insult to the Holocaust. And it isn’t “fascist”, “chauvinist” or such, as the commonly used word is “nazi”. Where I live now, saying “fascist” is more insulting, as it is typically used in relation to the WW2. At the same time, in many European countries “fascist” was more commonly used as a generic term, and “nazi” typically relevant to WW2. Therefore, when I visit my uncle, I don't use this word. Am I making myself clear? Saying that someone would sound “nazi-like” is just a relevant term that has nothing to do with a Holocaust, WW2 or any real events. Why I used it? Don’t know. It seemed to be fitting within the context.

Now, here’s the difference again. Saying that my manager is a “bloody nazi” is not an insult to the Holocaust or Jewish people. Calling a bully “nazi” is not insulting to the Holocaust, unless you specify that you aren’t implying it as a general term, but rather compare that person with real people and real events.

At the same time, comparing Katrina’s rescue with Holocaust is insulting. Wearing swastika (kiddos to prince) is insulting. Saying that someone is Josef Mengele is personal and extremely insulting.

Listen, we can sit here and compare who has more jewish wrinkles, but I am probably one of the very last people in the word who would intentionally compare anything to the real Nazists… anything… I thought I’ve made it clear, there was no reason to have it blown out on the proportion.

Just another little comparison. In many countries "negro" is a commonly used term for people with African origin. Here, in the US, you can get in jail for using this term, as it is believed to have direct relation to Nigeria, and therefore slavery, and therefore intended to insult African American people. Same parallel.
ladycat777 From: ladycat777 Date: January 30th, 2006 06:22 pm (UTC) (Link)
*sigh* I'm not interested in discussing who has more jewish wrinkles than the other. That was never, ever my intention. I didn't get that 'nazi' has become a common term in your vernacular. I see it now, and this distinctions and now understand. I still personally don't like it, but I now get why you used and yes, in that context, it works very well.

That is all I wanted to know. Thank you.
From: (Anonymous) Date: January 30th, 2006 06:42 pm (UTC) (Link)
I didn't make this anonymous post to hurt or insult you, Ladycat. I know you didn't mean ill. Nor did I make it to stir things up between you two again - particularly if you had reached a resolution.

I only wanted to let Elizabeth know that I saw in her explanation the same thing you have just recognized about her intentions. I just wanted her to know that I read her exchange and didn't think she was way out there.

That's all.
ladycat777 From: ladycat777 Date: January 30th, 2006 06:46 pm (UTC) (Link)
Oh, no (sorry, Elizabeth, I'd email the anon-poster if I could, Iknow you want this dropped) I'm not blaming you. I honestly didn't understand it could be a cultural/vernacular thing until your post, so thank you for that.

I overreacted, for which I'm sorry. I don't think what I said was really all that harsh, initially, but I didn't understand. Now I do. I am sorry, to both of you, for that misunderstanding and my initial comments about it.
elizabeth_cs From: elizabeth_cs Date: January 30th, 2006 09:28 pm (UTC) (Link)
Apology accepted. I do apologize too if I sounded too harsh. Typically I am very civil, and opened to answer any questions. In this case, I realized that the message got lost somewhere, and just asked to believe me that I didn’t mean to be spiteful. Unfortunately, no one seemed to bother to ask me anything, and many decided not to read/believe in my sincere explanation, but were just attacking me on very private level. I still feel bad about the entire thing, and I am sure there will be more crap coming my way.

In some way, of course, I am really happy that there are people who know about the events of WW2, and feel strongly about it being a sacred subject. Its better this way than another way around – too many don’t know, don’t care and don’t accept. There are so many ways for these people to spread the word and make this world better (other than attacking innocent posters of course). Unfortunately, I am tended to believe that those who attacked me don’t care either way – they are just posers to get some nasty attention.

I was helping with the yearly article for 2005 a few weeks ago, which was partially dedicated to Simon Wiesenthal (died last year). In relation, I was going through some reports surrounding Eichmann… God, even though I knew it all since I was a child, I was terrified, couldn’t sleep for days. Right this minute, just recalling it makes my head and my heart physically hurt. So no, there was nothing in the recent history that even closely resembles Holocaust, I would never say or imply anything of this nature, neither I would tolerate such comments.

Anywhoo... I hope this subject is closed, and we can all shake hands and go back to our daily business. I have some nasty porn to make... *sigh*
elizabeth_cs From: elizabeth_cs Date: January 30th, 2006 09:22 pm (UTC) (Link)
And again I want to thank you for your support. I was able to let it out, and now feel calmer in regard of this issue. Thank you, sweety. *hugs*
elizabeth_cs From: elizabeth_cs Date: January 30th, 2006 04:43 pm (UTC) (Link)
I appreciate that you came over and explained the nature of this cultural misunderstanding. I honestly couldn't understand why my comment was such mispercepted, but yeh, now it makes sense. Thank you again. Considering my background and my current activities, the subject matter is truly laughable.

What bothers me though, is after I was saying: " No, that's not what I've said, it hurts me even imagining you thought that I've meant it... for the following reasons...", there were people who went after me saying: "We know better, that's exactly what you meant, and that's why...". I did feel like I was in a Twilight Zone. It all comes to human nature *shrugs*. I've been told not to get engaged into conversation with some people, as they are very rude and aggressive, and are likely to turn discussion into personal insults. I was hoping for the best, but hey...

Again, appreciate your understanding and support. *hugs*
shapinglight From: shapinglight Date: February 22nd, 2006 01:20 pm (UTC) (Link)
Hey, luv - just saw your latest post, comments disabled. You sound very down. I'm sorry about that.
elizabeth_cs From: elizabeth_cs Date: February 23rd, 2006 04:09 am (UTC) (Link)
Sorry about disactivating the comments - didn't want to have questions on "who" or "why". People forget that whatever they say will always pass to... No matter how or where said. I am a bit down, but I'll get over it surely. :-) *hugs*
shapinglight From: shapinglight Date: February 23rd, 2006 10:52 am (UTC) (Link)
:Hugs back:

There're a lot of us who feel the same way you do about LJ at the moment, most of us with a lot less reason too.

Hope you feel better about it soon.
33 comments or Leave a comment